tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post8586441999132407364..comments2023-10-16T08:12:13.145-05:00Comments on Four and Twenty+ Blackbirds: To Clarify My Points on Catechesis and the Holy CommunionRev. Rick Stuckwischhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-21197603186076390712009-04-30T07:31:00.000-05:002009-04-30T07:31:00.000-05:00Jumping back in when it's all done. . . .
The que...Jumping back in when it's all done. . . .<br /><br />The question I have is why do we end up treating memorization as a requirement for Confirmation (or first communion) but not for subsequent communion later on? If that is the standard of what it means to know at one point, why does it change later?Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-37333862665812943702009-04-27T17:56:00.000-05:002009-04-27T17:56:00.000-05:00Thanks again for your participation in the convers...Thanks again for your participation in the conversation, Paul, and for bowing out gracefully. We shall be left with our disagreement at this point, although I rejoice that we are not in disagreement across the board. Our points of agreement, such as you have previously identified, are not insignificant.<br /><br />Perhaps after some reflection, you will understand my point. For the time being, I appreciate your courtesy toward me, and your putting the best construction on my efforts; even where you disagree with me and believe me to be missing the ball.<br /><br />To say it short and sweet: I'm not oppposed to memorization, nor do I claim that the Catechism aims at something other than memorization. I simply do not see the Catechism mandating memorization as a pre-requisite to First Communion, but rather as a goal of ongoing catechesis.<br /><br />Likewise, as much as I appreciate the benefits of having things memorized, I don't believe that knowledge and understanding begin and end with memorization. That seems an important point, not only in the case of the very young, but also in the case of those who no longer have the Catechism memorized (including those who are permanently confused by the change in translation that occurred after their confirmation). Should we excommunicate those who can't recite the Catechism from memory, or ban them from the Table on any given Sunday when they can't say it by heart? I would say, No.<br /><br />In any case, God bless you, Paul, and a blessed Eastertide to you and your family.Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-92165868476182787002009-04-27T17:20:00.000-05:002009-04-27T17:20:00.000-05:00Okay, fair enough. Thanks for the clarification, ...Okay, fair enough. Thanks for the clarification, Paul (McCain). My mistake.<br /><br />However, it doesn't change my point. Luther is addressing the same concerns in both prefaces. And I deal with both Catechisms in the post to which we are here commenting.<br /><br />Paul (Beisel), I appreciate your comments, also. This is an important and compelling question, for any of us who are called to be the stewards of the mysteries of God. The question itself, at least as I have intended it, aims at something more fundamental and more general than age; as, I think, everyone here recognizes. In principle, the same question pertains in the case of an adult (even one already "confirmed").<br /><br />In fairness to Brother McCain and his questions of my position and practice, I have indicated that I do not specifically require a verbatim memorization, but look for a verbal confession of the faith that may not coincide word-for-word with the Catechism. So that is fair game for debate, in my opinion. Also, everything you have described concerning the young lady in my congregation is true, with the exception that she doesn't have the Ten Commandments memorized.<br /><br />I think that a pastor is faced with the question of whether or not a confession of the faith, or even of the six chief parts, is necessarily coterminous with a verbatim recitation of the primary texts of the Catechism from memory. My position, obviously, is that other considerations are of equal or greater significance than memorization; in particular, the context of ongoing catechesis within the home and family and in the life of the congregation (and the confession that flows from it).Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-63803129584110549002009-04-27T17:18:00.001-05:002009-04-27T17:18:00.001-05:00Oh, and one more thing, Will, since HRC already qu...Oh, and one more thing, Will, since HRC already quoted your favorite Luther quote on infant communion, you don't have to.<br /><br />; )<br /><br /><br />Beware Luther scholarship and theology by Table Talk!Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-4961511903480872432009-04-27T17:18:00.000-05:002009-04-27T17:18:00.000-05:00Brother Weedon, yes, of course you are correct, bu...Brother Weedon, yes, of course you are correct, but this speaks to worthiness for receiving the Sacrament in a salutary manner, not what is proper to admission to the Sacrament.<br /><br />Your texts have been quoted back to me many times to justify open communion across our beloved Synod.<br /><br />And of course, we have more than the Formula in our Book of Concord, so obviously, what is confessed in the Small Catechism is every bit as much instructive and normative for our practice as well.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-92014209652289180532009-04-27T17:14:00.001-05:002009-04-27T17:14:00.001-05:00Correction to previous:
I would say that you make...Correction to previous:<br /><br />I would say that you make the goal of earlier first communion with your promotion of giving the Eucharist to a three year old<br /><br />Should read:<br /><br />I would say that you make the goal of earlier first communion all that much more difficult, when you choose to communion a three year old child.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-53784924374868781832009-04-27T17:14:00.000-05:002009-04-27T17:14:00.000-05:00Coming late to the discussion, but perhaps better ...Coming late to the discussion, but perhaps better late than never.<br /><br />We ought not neglect the force of SD VII:61 where it is confessed that the spiritual eating of the Lord's body - faith - is necessary "for all Christians at all times for salvation."<br /><br />When discussing infant communion with the Patriarch Jeremias II, Andreae and company made the point that we do not commune infants BECAUSE they spiritually eat of Christ by faith through Baptism. <br /><br />What seem to go unnoticed is that it is precisely such spiritual eating of faith which is the prerequisite for a salutary oral eating in the Sacrament. <br /><br />Hence the sweeping statement that we REJECT the notion that worthiness comes not only from true faith (true spiritual eating), but also from a person's own preparations (SD VII:124) and that a true believers (who eats Christ spiritually by faith) could receive the Sacrament to his judgment (SD VII:125). FWIW.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-20179655504085787462009-04-27T17:12:00.000-05:002009-04-27T17:12:00.000-05:00Rick, I've grown tired of this conversation, thoug...Rick, I've grown tired of this conversation, though it has been interesting. I really am baffled that you found a way to understand the following words in a way that does not mean what they say:<br /><br /><I>Teach them, first of all, these parts: the Ten Commandments, the Creed, the Lord’s Prayer, and so on, <B>according to the text, word for word, so that they, too, can repeat it in the same way after you and commit it to memory</B>.</I>While I find your comments well intentioned, pious, and wanting the best for all concerned, I regard them to be, and remain, a fundamental misreading and misinterpretation of the text of the Catechism.<br /><br />Luther says to learn these texts "von Wort zu Wort" so "nachsagen können und auswendig lernen"<br /><br />I believe the meaning of the text is plain.<br /><br />"Auswendig lernen" means to learn by heart/rote/to memorize.<br /><br />The Latin translation of the SC underscores this understanding with its delightful "referre discant" ... to sing back! [I'm tempted to plug here a CPH resource, but I refrain].<br /><br />How on God's green earth could we not consider it as important to the little ones whom we are considering communing speak back, from memory, with understanding, the texts?<br /><br />Luther certainly demands it and expects it. Our Confessions teach it. Frankly, that settles it.<br /><br />I am all for earlier age of first communion, but I'm also all for being faithful to the Lutheran Confessions and not striking out on our own, Rick, which is, respectfully, what you are doing when you give communion to three year olds. I would say that you make the goal of earlier first communion with your promotion of giving the Eucharist to a three year old. And if a three year old, why not a two year old? And so it goes.<br /><br />We will have to disagree with each other.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-91003088311539505362009-04-27T17:00:00.000-05:002009-04-27T17:00:00.000-05:00The quote I've offered in the last several posts i...The quote I've offered in the last several posts is from the <I>Small</I> Catechism.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-6651245327893738042009-04-27T16:55:00.000-05:002009-04-27T16:55:00.000-05:00A hearty "Amen" to what Dr. Stuckwisch has said in...A hearty "Amen" to what Dr. Stuckwisch has said in this last comment. That is a great question: on what basis can one say "no" to a child of God who is (1) catechized and (2) asking for the life-giving food of the Supper? This is a serious question for ALL of us to ask ourselves. What shall we tell the child, or the parents for that matter? Shall we simply say: "You're just not old enough yet."? <br /><br />I can find absolutely no fault with what Dr. Stuckwisch is saying here. None whatsoever. He is not speaking about someone who is not well grounded in the Faith. He is not speaking about someone whose parents are not themselves faithful and catechized members of the Church. He is speaking about a baptized Christian, who has learned by heart the primary texts of the Catechism, who has faith in the Words of the Sacrament, and wants to receive it. What's the big deal? I have eighty-year olds who were baptized as infants and have been life-long members of the Church that do not even want to receive the Sacrament when it is offered. <br /><br />Dr. Stuckwisch, I for one cannot see how you would be going against the Command and Institution of our Lord in admitting such a person to the Holy Sacrament.Rev. Paul Beiselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04678751687495292703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-78875298239650355832009-04-27T16:29:00.000-05:002009-04-27T16:29:00.000-05:00Thanks for continuing the conversation, Paul, and ...Thanks for continuing the conversation, Paul, and for your follow-up comments and questions.<br /><br />On my counter-question concerning the case of a three-year-old, read what I've said a little more carefully. I didn't say, "show me where they didn't." That would have been a "foul" on the play, but I wasn't trying to be silly. I'm saying, "Where do we find the Lutheran fathers refusing the Sacrament to a baptized three-year-old (or someone of any age) who confesses the faith and requests the body and blood of Christ?" Of course, I make no claims that they were communing "three-year-olds" in general, but my point has been, and I think we basically agree on this, that people were admitted to the Sacrament on the basis of the catechesis and confession of the Word of God. So, if one is going to make and discuss an argument from our Lutheran history, it would need to be addressing that point; not simply someone's age. I'm not aware of the Lutherans communing "three-year-olds," but neither am I aware of them turning away baptized and catechized three-year-olds who were confessing the faith and asking to be communed. Do you see the difference?<br /><br />I'm glad that you have three-year-olds nearby to interact with. They are a joy and delight. I was mainly wondering because of your eearlier reference to "toddlers," and then your repeated questions about the ability to speak. I know a few very shy three-year-olds who are reluctant to speak, but have not met any three-year-olds who are unable to do so. My own three-year-olds are chatterboxes!<br /><br />Okay, to the main point at hand, which is the quote from the Large Catechism. First of all, you should know that for a very long time I read it, understood it, and applied it in exactly the way that you are, Paul. But various things in my pastoral practice and pastoral care kept driving me back to consider whether those words of Luther really mandated memorization as a pre-requisite to First Communion. I didn't move away from that position, however, until I noticed, that's not what Luther says.<br /><br />This is why I've distinguished "knowing" from "having memorized" (and reciting from memory), on the one hand; and why I have also distinguished the <I>process</I> of learning (and the <I>process</I> of committing to memory) from the completed achievement of having things already memorized. The latter distinction is the same as that between a journey and a destination.<br /><br />Look at what Luther says. It is not those who have failed yet to memorize, but those who refuse to learn, who should not only not be given the Sacrament, but not be employed as servants or given any supper at home, either. And that pertains, not only to First Communion, but to those who are already communing. And not only little children, but adults, yes, even doctors of theology, such as Luther himself. Even in his case, he doesn't say that he reviews the Catechism from memory every day, but that he "reads and repeats" the chief parts daily, praying them like a little child.<br /><br />What Luther describes in the quote is precisely not a recitation from memory, but a process of the father speaking and the household repeating after him, word for word, what he has spoken. And by this process, they do learn and do commit to memory the texts at hand. This is exactly what I encourage my people to do, and do everything I can to help them do. But, again -- and I'm not trying to engage in sophistry or semantic games; this is what I was driven to by my reading of the text -- it is a refusal to learn, not a failure to have already memorized, that places a person under discipline (whether they have already been communing or not).<br /><br />I make these points, not only in the interest of communing younger children (when they are being catechized and are confessing the faith, even apart from having things memorized and reciting them from memory verbatim), but also in the interest of stressing that catechesis is ongoing for everyone, young and old alike. This, I believe, is Dr. Luther's main point in the preface to his catechisms; or one of his main points, anyway. Not only that the little children should be catechized by their fathers and mothers at home, but that everyone else should also be returning to these basics of the faith every day. Repeating them daily, committing them to memory by that process -- these things are only the beginning of a lifetime of catechesis; a beginning to which one keeps returning, while also continuing to grow in faith and knowledge through hearing the preaching, singing the hymns and praying of the Psalms, etc. That is why I stress ongoing catechesis so strongly, and why I continue catechizing my young communicants, myself, as their pastor, in formal catechesis classes, for yet another four or five years beyond their First Communion.<br /><br />Having said all that, I will simply reiterate that, in most cases, even my youngest communicants DO know the Creed, the Our Father, the baptismal Invocation, and the Verba Domini by heart; and they pray and confess these primary texts along with their families and the Church (or their pastor). The Decalogue is more of a struggle, granted; but, as I have pointed out, even our Lord Himself and St. Paul the Apostle summarize and simplify the whole Law into the one or two commandments of "Love."<br /><br />When I have spoken about not insisting on memorization, it has more often been in the case of an older child (relatively speaking) who simply struggles academically with the committing of things to memory. Having had several such children in catechesis classes over the years, I struggled with how to rectify those situations, especially where the child was in church faithfully and regularly, and also being catechized in the home by his parents and family, in contrast to other young people who could memorize their assignment for the week in the car on the way to class, but who weren't in church as faithfully and weren't being catechized in the home.<br /><br />The three-year-old I described to begin with is being catechized very faithfully in her home and family, and she is in church every week (sometimes several times); she knows and confesses and prays the primary texts, though not yet the Ten Commandments, even if she would be too shy to stand up and say them in front of the entire congregation by herself. So when she looks me in the eye and asks me point blank for the body and blood of Jesus, then I have to ask myself, as her pastor, on what basis I can conscientiously say no.Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-74722048383959254642009-04-27T15:47:00.000-05:002009-04-27T15:47:00.000-05:00Of course, Luther was picking up the pieces at the...Of course, Luther was picking up the pieces at the time, and yes, we do too. But I do not think we want to base our catechesis and admission to the Sacrament on the basis of "worst case scenarios."<br /><br />Like I said, I suspect that we we required adults to recite, from memory, these texts, the controversy over separating first communion from the rite of confirmation would pale in comparison.<br /><br />Seriously.<br /><br />But...well, seems this is what Blessed Martin Luther is saying. I've never known him to mince his words.<br /><br />I find the prefaces to the Small Catechism to be very instructive, if you would pardon the pun please.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-2173978182116251082009-04-27T15:44:00.000-05:002009-04-27T15:44:00.000-05:00each them, first of all, these parts: the Ten Comm...<I>each them, first of all, these parts: the Ten Commandments, the Creed, the Lord’s Prayer, and so on, according to the text, word for word, so that they, too, can repeat it in the same way after you and commit it to memory. But those who are unwilling to learn the catechism should be told that they deny Christ and are not Christians. They should not be admitted to the Sacrament</I><BR>Since these words are in the Small Catechism, I can not think of any reason to assume that Luther did not regard his comments as meaning that people who are admitted to the Sacrament are those to whom the texts have been taught, word for word, and that they know them by heart and can recite them with understanding. "They should not be admitted to the Sacrament" seems, to me at least, to be a clear assertion and quite final. So, prerequisite? Yes.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-40794542641726852712009-04-27T13:25:00.000-05:002009-04-27T13:25:00.000-05:00Were Luther's instructions meant to be a pre-requi...Were Luther's instructions meant to be a pre-requisite to first communion, or simply a statement of what every communicant ought to know who is already communing? As I recall, the situation in Germany at the time was such that people were already communing who had no knowledge of these things. Luther's intention with the Catechism was to instruct those who were already communing. Those who refuse to learn it should be excommunicated, and told that they are no Christians, and can *no longer* be admitted to the altar. <br /><br />Should there be any additional pre-requisites for Communion than there are for Baptism?Rev. Paul Beiselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04678751687495292703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-37143902377423689342009-04-27T12:38:00.000-05:002009-04-27T12:38:00.000-05:00What does this mean?
Teach them, first of all, th...What does this mean?<br /><br /><I>Teach them, first of all, these parts: the Ten Commandments, the Creed, the Lord’s Prayer, and so on, according to the text, word for word, so that they, too, can repeat it in the same way after you and commit it to memory. But those who are unwilling to learn the catechism should be told that they deny Christ and are not Christians. They should not be admitted to the Sacrament</I>I'm having a hard time understanding how Blessed Martin Luther's words would not be the normal course for what we require of those who seek to commune, at any age. Maybe that is as radical a suggestion as the one Brother Stuckwisch is making about giving the Sacrament to a three year old.<br /><br />Yes, the "Bohemians" were the heirs of Jan Huss. <br /><br />And I hope we would all agree that a quip from Luther's Table Talk does not a doctrine establish.<br /><br />Rick, you take "daddy of the new century award" and I won't quibble with you about your expertise with three year olds. I do however find myself regularly in the company of three year olds. They happen to live next door and love to ride over my freshly mowed front lawn with their Barbie battery powered vehicles. I try my best to offer safe driving tips and suggestions. They giggle and go on their merry way.<br /><br />The reason I keep referencing the three year old child is because you seemed particularly interested in three year old children in the post that started this conversation. You obviously recognize that giving communion to a three year old is something a bit novel for us.<br /><br />And that's why I keep asking you where in our Lutheran historical practice can you find examples of a similar practice. You have now countered with the old, "Show me where they didn't" trick. Which is kind of silly. I mean, honestly, Rick. The point is that our fathers were not the silly dopes some think they were [not you, of course], so I do regard it is helpful and instructive to understand why they did some things, and not others.<br /><br />I find no precedence in the early Reformation era for tying first communion to confirmation, so that's not something even worth talking about.<br /><br />My position is simply that I find nothing in our Lutheran Confessions that would grant that we give the Sacrament to people, of any age, who can not recite with cognition and knowledge the core texts of the Catechism. The quote at the beginning of this comment is the evidence I put forward for this position. I think the words are plainly said and not subject to misinterpretation, and so do not really deserve to receive the kind of redefinition you are trying to give them.<br /><br />And, thank you for your apology for suggesting that I was somehow taking the position that we give the Sacrament to people who are not catechized.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-88137156739433122022009-04-27T08:47:00.000-05:002009-04-27T08:47:00.000-05:00Not sure if it is wise to add anymore to this disc...Not sure if it is wise to add anymore to this discussion, but I'm going to anyway. As I have been thinking about this topic, the proper age to commune children, I was thinking about the fact that when adults are baptized, they are immediately admitted to the altar. For them, the Lord's Supper is the meal for the Baptized. With children, we separate baptism and admission to the altar, in most cases, by 14 years. If a child is not ready to receive the Lord's Supper, are they really ready to be baptized? <br /><br />One wonders if we shouldn't bring admission to the altar as close to baptism as possible.Rev. Paul Beiselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04678751687495292703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-51201033662734027642009-04-27T00:20:00.000-05:002009-04-27T00:20:00.000-05:00Here is something I found doing a search on the Hu...Here is something I found doing a search on the Hussite movement: http://books.google.com/books?id=_EPW0kVFjBoC&pg=PA345&lpg=PA345&dq=Hussites+Communioin&source=bl&ots=DF8zfd8hB3&sig=FFxQNyRcGoHrXpfy1L5GSPzv9go&hl=en&ei=8D_1SaHxE6WxmAem_diYDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9#PPA345,M1Rev. Paul Beiselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04678751687495292703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-10931913864902945822009-04-27T00:17:00.000-05:002009-04-27T00:17:00.000-05:00The Bohemians did have a connection to Hus. I read...The Bohemians did have a connection to Hus. I read an article once at sem about the Hussites and their communion practice. It may have been an old CTQ article. Luther highly praised John Hus, according to a Higher Things article I just read, even saying of themselves: "We are all Hussites." I think that they were the founders of the Moravian church. I seem to remember reading that they practiced very early communion.Rev. Paul Beiselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04678751687495292703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-91817070994893064532009-04-26T22:12:00.000-05:002009-04-26T22:12:00.000-05:00Maybe someone else will help us out, but I'm think...Maybe someone else will help us out, but I'm thinking the Bohemians may have been Hussites.<br /><br />Anyone? Anyone?Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-59254407114445755232009-04-26T20:24:00.000-05:002009-04-26T20:24:00.000-05:00Didn't the Hussites advocate (and practice) commun...Didn't the Hussites advocate (and practice) communion of very young children?Rev. Paul Beiselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04678751687495292703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-61404494720973235242009-04-26T12:06:00.000-05:002009-04-26T12:06:00.000-05:00Brother McCain, I have not leveled any accusations...Brother McCain, I have not leveled any accusations against you; but I am sorry that I misintepreted your remark and responded inaccurately. You seemed to identify yourself with the "some people" I described in my Facebook note. in that note, I indicated that "some people are comfortable with communing adults, because of their age and 'maturity,' even apart from ongoing catechesis and confession." I took your response to that note as an indication that you saw yourself so described. And I remarked, with some surprise, that you would evidently see yourself in that description. I retract whatever implications were thereby leveled against you; and I rejoice that you take no such position. It was not my goal to castigate you.<br /><br />It does leave me wondering: What is your standard for admittance to the Holy Communion? But I guess you are withdrawing from the conversation; so perhaps I'll never know. From what you have said, or rather, from the way you have reacted to the case of one particular three-year-old, you not only have a different standard in place for little children, but a much higher, more difficult and demanding criteria for children than for adults. If that, too, is a false impression, I would be pleased to understand differently.<br /><br />Since you have continued pressing me on whether or not I have documented evidence of Lutherans communing "three-year-olds" (which has never been the point of my post), I would press you to present documented evidence that our Lutheran forefathers withheld the Holy Communion from every baptized three-year-old who confessed the faith and requested the Body and Blood of Christ.<br /><br />Do we have any documented evidence to suggest that our Lutheran forefathers ever gave or withheld the Holy Communion on the basis of a person's age, irrespective of their catechesis and confession? If that is the case, then bring foreward that evidence, and then we can consider on the basis of the Holy Scriptures and our Lutheran Confessions whether it was right for them to do so.<br /><br />When the case of the Bohemians was brought to Luther's attention, as I understand it (working here from memory, which is never completely certain), he was not willing to condemn their practice of infant communion. Though I have not been arguing for infant commmunion here, as I have made clear (more than once, for those who have been paying attention), that historical circumstance does seem to bear upon the question put to me.<br /><br />Paul, if you were inclined to answer, I really wonder how many three-year-olds you actually know and interact with on a regular basis. I wonder, because your image of "three-year-olds" seems quite off. You seem to be hung up on that age for some reason, in such a way that you appear to forget the rest of our discussion and keep returning to that point. I could have said everything else I said to begin with, in exactly the same way, only without mentioning the young lady's age, and I suspect it would have changed your response altogether. I wish that you would or could tell me why that might be. Or, if there is something else in what I have said, other than the young lady's age, that seems amiss or unfaithful to you, what is it?<br /><br />Maybe our Lutheran forefathers simply never had any three-year-olds as pious and faithful and verbally articulate as my congregation does.Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-37534466234495493732009-04-26T08:25:00.000-05:002009-04-26T08:25:00.000-05:00In light of the very serious accusation that you h...In light of the very serious accusation that you have leveled at me on your Facebook page, I do not believe further constructive conversation on these issues is possible. I leave this conversation with the following remarks and observations.<br /><br />If you would point out where I have ever advocated communing anyone without proper catechesis, I will gladly repent of any such remark. If however you can not, then I will thank you to retract your accusation, which stands now as a slander, without evidence.<br /><br />Your decision to give the Sacrament to a three year old stands outside the practice of the Lutheran Church. The burden of proof is not on anyone to prove such practice to be inconsistent with our doctrine and practice, but rests squarely on you to demonstrate how the practice is rooted and grounded in the Lutheran Church's practice. You have admitted there is no precedent for such practice in the Lutheran Church.<br /><br />You have chosen to engage in practices that have not been studied carefully by the fellowship of your colleagues, that has no sanction, approval or endorsements from your Synod. I do not believe it is wise or helpful to strike out on our own in such matters.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-36092736876786605412009-04-26T06:43:00.000-05:002009-04-26T06:43:00.000-05:00Since my excessive verbiage has gotten in the way ...Since my excessive verbiage has gotten in the way of what I said:<br /><br />Whether in the case of a little child or an adult, there needs to be a <I>verbal</I> confession of the faith (i.e. with words).<br /><br />At no point in this conversation have I suggested or indicated anything to the contrary.Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-30983898471848852582009-04-25T22:59:00.000-05:002009-04-25T22:59:00.000-05:00Rick, you do yourself a disservice in these conver...Rick, you do yourself a disservice in these conversations with your extensively excessive verbiage.<br /><br />I'm asking you simply if a little child being able to speak is a criteria you have for determining if they have enough knowledge of the Catechism.<br /><br />By what means would you determine a child's knowledge of the Catechism apart from some verbal communication?<br /><br />I know you have bristled at Pastor Schaibley's conversations about childhood cognition, but would you at least say that a little child should be able to speak in order for you properly to examine and absolve him/her?Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-627517209657132818.post-30537126487348883352009-04-25T20:18:00.000-05:002009-04-25T20:18:00.000-05:00Actually, for the sake of clarification, I did not...Actually, for the sake of clarification, I did not commune the young lady who asked me for the Body and Blood of Christ; but I was piqued in my conscience by her explicit request. She will receive her First Communion soon, but not on the spur of the moment at the Altar. I'm in conversation with her and her parents, and we'll do things in good order.<br /><br />As far as speaking is concerned, I'm not sure where I have confused you. The fact that a person may not yet be able to recite the chief parts verbatim from memory does not imply that he or she is not able to confess them at all. It means, rather, that the chief parts are not only confessed in the particular words of the Small Catechism, but can also be confessed in either shorter and simpler or more elaborate and more fully developed ways. Would you, for example, say that Dr. Luther's Catechism hymns are not a confession of the chief parts, simply because they do not follow the text of the Small Catechism verbatim? I'm sure you would not.<br /><br />What I am looking for in the examination of a young child is not a mastery of memory work, but a confession of the Law and the Gospel, of sin, of faith in Christ and His forgiveness, of prayer to the Father, and a desire for the Body and Blood of Christ in the Supper. (I'm simply summarizing off the cuff here, so bear with me if I'm being too general.)<br /><br />Anyway, my main point has not been that little children should not say the six chief parts as we know them from the Catechism, but that they need not do so by themselves from memory. They can hear and repeat them with their parents, or pray and confess them with their parents and families and congregations; just as Dr. Luther speaks of daily "reading and repeating" the chief parts. If little children are thus assisted in confessing their faith, is it any less their own confession than in the case of someone who has already memorized the texts?<br /><br />With respect to the Creed and the Our Father, I have indicated that, not only the three-year-old I described, but most of the little children in my parish know these texts and pray and confess them with their families and with the congregation. They probably do have them memorized, but I'm not pressing them on that point, and I'm not requiring them to say from memory them by themselves as though it were a test.<br /><br />I've also mentioned that the three-year-old I described, and many of the other young children in my parish, know the Verba Domini and say them along with their pastor as they are chanted in the Divine Service each week (not because I ask them to, but because they know and love the Verba Domini). It is in response to those Words of Christ that little children ask for His Body and Blood; because they hear what He says in faith and take Him at His Word when He says, "This is My Body. Eat. This is My Blood. Drink."<br /><br />With respect to the Ten Commandments, here is where the real issue of memorization most comes into play. Learning the Commandments by heart and reciting them verbatim from memory is a more challenging cognitive and verbal achievement than confessing the Creed and praying the Our Father; not only because the Decalogue is longer and far less linear in its structure, but because it isn't a liturgical text. However, the Ten Commandments can be simplified and summarized, in the way our Lord Himself does, as the Law of love for God and love for the neighbor. A little child can certainly know, understand and confess that; and, perhaps more to the point at hand, a little child can acknowledge and confess where he or she has failed to love God and the neighbor. Not without help, of course, but then again, none of us can know his sin or confess it rightly without the help of the Word and Spirit.<br /><br />The knowledge and use of the Ten Commandments, as I suggested earlier, is located especially in confession and absolution. Likewise, the knowledge and "use" of Holy Baptism is located, not only in confession and absolution, but in confessing the Creed and in praying the Our Father. To pray to the Father with the Word of Christ and the help of His Spirit, is to invoke the one true God who has named us with His Name in Holy Baptism. And to confess the Holy Triune God, who He is and what He has done, as in the Apostles' Creed, is to confess the One who has baptized us in His Holy Name.<br /><br />All of these things are done -- and this would be my point -- not only by individual memorization, but as well or better by personal participation in the daily prayer of the home and family, and in the liturgical life of the congregation. Not only do I know and observe these things in the members and families of my parish, but I also discern them and take note of them in my pastoral care for individuals and in my pastoral conversation with members, young and old.<br /><br />Perhaps that helps to clarify what I am saying and doing. Or maybe it muddies the waters further. In any case, I am finding the conversation helpful and clarifying, so thank you for that.Rev. Rick Stuckwischhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664716292792101540noreply@blogger.com