Four and Twenty+ Blackbirds: A Question for one of Better Hebrew than I

16 February 2011

A Question for one of Better Hebrew than I

Okay,

So, I have been doing some studying, and I've come across a few sources who seem to think that in Genesis 34 that Dinah is not raped, but rather that when she is "taken" by Shechem it is a willing thing - that it is not "seized" her but, takes her as a wife, but they aren't married yet. Thus the dishonor and humiliation isn't rape but rather pre-marital sex.

Now, here I must admit - my Hebrew is... well, let's just say I've learned to hate the BDB with a passion. The Greek just has "labOn" - which is take. What nuances come out in the Hebrew - וַיִּקַּ

Anyone know? Okay, I'm sure one of you know - could you lend any insight this way?

7 comments:

Pr. H. R. said...: The verbs to take and to grasp have a long history in many languages of being a euphemism for rape. It'd be hard for me to read that line in any other way. Given, that might be my background in Greek and Latin where there is no doubt what they mean.

In addition, it is hard to imagine a woman in that culture going in for premarital sex willingly.

+HRC; Wednesday, February 16, 2011 at 9:18:00 AM CST
Rev. Eric J Brown said...: That's the way I want to lean as well - however, a few things give me pause.

1. There is the simple way of saying, "He took her to be his wife" - which doesn't imply rape.
2. The point that Shechem loves Dinah and speaks tenderly to her made repeatedly.
3. The brothers are even willing to consider marriage.
4. At the end of the chapter, the brothers accuse Shechem of treating her like a prostitute.

While I certainly can see why and how this is understood as a rape... I think it makes a lot of sense if this is dumb teens not thinking. And that is the cause of the dishonor - that she throws decorum to the wind and is seduced.

The Greek doesn't have that "harpazo", that forceful sense - it's just lambano. I am really curious about the Hebrew.; Wednesday, February 16, 2011 at 9:32:00 AM CST
Ted Badje said...: The whole intent of Genesis 34 is to show what happens when the patriarchs do not consult God for their actions. God is not even mentioned in the whole chapter. The chapter ended up with Jacob's sons using circumcision as a tool to commit murder. It is a definitive example of what happens when Man is left to his own devices and morality.; Monday, February 21, 2011 at 8:28:00 AM CST
John Wurst said...: I sent your request to Chad Bird. He is excellent with the Hebrew language.; Tuesday, February 22, 2011 at 11:30:00 AM CST
John Wurst said...: Here is the response I received from Chad...

Hey John,
You happened to catch me at a time when 99% of my books are boxed up, including my Hebrew lexicons. Basically, though, the Hebrew verb for 'take' is used here. And like many verbs, it depends almost entirely upon context to narrow down a meaning. So there's nothing much in the verb itself to help you--no technical meaning that might answer the question. You'll have to let the whole story guide you in determining what kind of 'taking' took place.

Chad

I hope this helps.; Tuesday, February 22, 2011 at 9:54:00 PM CST
Rev. Scott Hojnacki said...: I would suggest that, rather than focusing on the “taking,” which is the (rather generic) Hebrew laqah, that the “rape” is found in the Hebrew ’anah, the last word in the verse, literally “humbled/humiliated,” generally translated as “defiled” or “violated.” The word is not ordinarily used of consensual sex (Deut. 22:24, Judges 19:24, 2 Samuel 13:14 are a few examples).; Thursday, February 24, 2011 at 1:15:00 PM CST
Rev. Eric J Brown said...: Scott:

Looking at Deut 22:24 - that seems to denote that which is consentual - the woman in that case did not cry for help, even though she was in the city. Part of me wonders if this isn't simply that we are much more willing to brush off the shame of extra-martial sex and not view it as a horrific violation and humiliation.; Monday, March 7, 2011 at 2:28:00 PM CST

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The Twenty-Four Elders (and a few living creatures)

Rev. Benjamin Ball
St. Paul, Hamel, Illinois

Rev. Larry Beane
Salem, Gretna, Louisiana

Rev. Paul Beisel
Immanuel, Iowa Falls, Iowa

Rev. Peter Bender
Peace, Sussex, Wisconsin

Rev. Eric Brown
Trinity, Herscher, Illinois

Rev. Heath Curtis
Zion, Carpenter, Illinois

Rev. William Cwirla
Holy Trinity, Hacienda Heights, CA

Rev. Dr. Burnell Eckardt
St. Paul, Kewanee, Illinois

Rev. Erich Fickel
St. Paul, Chesterton, Indiana

Rev. William Foy
Prince of Peace, Valparaiso, Indiana

Rev. John A. Frahm III
Trinity, Boulder Junction, Wisconsin

Rev. Robert Franck
Mount Olive, Duluth, Minnesota

Rev. Dr. Gifford Grobien
CTS, Fort Wayne, Indiana

Rev. Dr. Kent Heimbigner
Charity, Burleson, Texas

Rev. Dr. Steven Hein
Colorado Springs, Colorado

Rev. Rich Heinz
St. Johns, Chicago, Illinois

Rev. David Kind
University Lutheran, Minneapolis

Rev. Brent Kuhlman
Trinity, Murdock, Nebraska

Rev. Alan Ludwig, Professor
Lutheran Theological Seminary
Novosibirsk, Russia

Rev. Todd Peperkorn
Holy Cross, Rocklin, California

Rev. J. Richard Sawyer
Good Shepherd, Brandon, Mississippi

Rev. Robert Schaibley, emeritus
Shepherd of the Springs,
Colorado Springs, Colorado

Rev. Dr. Richard Stuckwisch
Emmaus, South Bend, Indiana

Rev. Jacob Sutton
Immanuel, Terre Haute, Indiana

Rev. Ralph Tausz
Apostles, Melrose Park, Illinois

Rev. David Jay Webber
Redeemer, Scottsdale, Arizona

Rev. William Weedon
Lutheran Public Radio, Collinsville, IL

Rev. Dr. Georg Williams
Zion, Ainsworth, Nebraska

Rev. Kyle Wright II
St. Matthew, Hamlet, Indiana

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Four and Twenty+ Blackbirds

16 February 2011

A Question for one of Better Hebrew than I

7 comments:

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Four and Twenty+ Blackbirds

16 February 2011

A Question for one of Better Hebrew than I

7 comments:

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Blog Archive

The Mutual Conversation of the Brethren

Friends, Romans, Countrymen, et al.

On the Windowsill

Regular Readers

Contact the Administrator

Rubrics and Blogistics for the Blackbirds

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