Elders, mine are the elected variety not the ordained type, what should they be allowed to do?
I like many of you brothers have a board of Elders. They are men from the congregation with no special training or even aptitude for any of the various functions of the pastoral office. Yet, from somewhere in the past, this board was formed to assist the pastor. Among their functions according to the Constitution and bylaws of the congregation they are to pray for the pastor, ensure his family is cared for and that he has appropriate time off. Additionally they are to determine along with the pastor the worship practice of the congregation, approve worship resources. They were, by the time I arrived, assisting with the distribution of the elements in the Holy Communion.
The previous pastor had them distribute the host and the individual cups and he would distribute the Blood of Christ. I changed that to my distribution of the Host as only the pastor can admit to the Holy Supper and with the Host coming first, it seemed logical for the pastor to go first.
I have had a field worker now vicar for the past 4 years and I have had him distribute the Chalice and I have been down to one elder from previously having two, (one for the chalice, one for the individual cups). At the mid-week services I have not had an Elder serve as the vicar and I do it all. I first bring the host, then I bring the Chalice and the vicar follows with the individual cups. (no complaints on time here as there are many fewer in attendance so the service does not go "too long".)
Although I am not one concerned with the length of the service, (Divine service every Sunday is about 1 hr and 10-15 minutes) I know that when the vicar leaves, I would like to continue to bring the host and the chalice and only have an Elder bring the individual cups, (ideally we would do away the individual cups or I would bring them as well but I do not live in the ideal world).
How do you do what you do? Have any of you had my situation and gotten away from it and if so how did you do it? Have you been able to get rid of the individual cups and how? Do you have your elders at least wear some sort of robe for their part when they enter the chancel? Looking for some historic and practical help here. Thanks brothers.
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A Round Table of Lutheran pastors speaking from within their office and vocation to matters of the Christian faith and life. As iron sharpens steel, our mutual engagement of questions and concerns pertaining to the Church and Ministry of Christ serves to refine our theological acumen, clarify our confession, and guide our sacred stewardship of the Mysteries of God.
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The Twenty-Four Elders (and a few living creatures)
Rev. Benjamin Ball
St. Paul, Hamel, Illinois
Rev. Larry Beane
Salem, Gretna, Louisiana
Rev. Paul Beisel
Immanuel, Iowa Falls, Iowa
Rev. Peter Bender
Peace, Sussex, Wisconsin
Rev. Eric Brown
Trinity, Herscher, Illinois
Rev. Heath Curtis
Zion, Carpenter, Illinois
Rev. William Cwirla
Holy Trinity, Hacienda Heights, CA
Rev. Dr. Burnell Eckardt
St. Paul, Kewanee, Illinois
Rev. Erich Fickel
St. Paul, Chesterton, Indiana
Rev. William Foy
Prince of Peace, Valparaiso, Indiana
Rev. John A. Frahm III
Trinity, Boulder Junction, Wisconsin
Rev. Robert Franck
Mount Olive, Duluth, Minnesota
Rev. Dr. Gifford Grobien
CTS, Fort Wayne, Indiana
Rev. Dr. Kent Heimbigner
Charity, Burleson, Texas
Rev. Dr. Steven Hein
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Rev. Rich Heinz
St. Johns, Chicago, Illinois
Rev. David Kind
University Lutheran, Minneapolis
Rev. Brent Kuhlman
Trinity, Murdock, Nebraska
Rev. Alan Ludwig, Professor
Lutheran Theological Seminary
Novosibirsk, Russia
Rev. Todd Peperkorn
Holy Cross, Rocklin, California
Rev. J. Richard Sawyer
Good Shepherd, Brandon, Mississippi
Rev. Robert Schaibley, emeritus
Shepherd of the Springs,
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Rev. Dr. Richard Stuckwisch
Emmaus, South Bend, Indiana
Rev. Jacob Sutton
Immanuel, Terre Haute, Indiana
Rev. Ralph Tausz
Apostles, Melrose Park, Illinois
Rev. David Jay Webber
Redeemer, Scottsdale, Arizona
Rev. William Weedon
Lutheran Public Radio, Collinsville, IL
Rev. Dr. Georg Williams
Zion, Ainsworth, Nebraska
Rev. Kyle Wright II
St. Matthew, Hamlet, Indiana
St. Paul, Hamel, Illinois
Rev. Larry Beane
Salem, Gretna, Louisiana
Rev. Paul Beisel
Immanuel, Iowa Falls, Iowa
Rev. Peter Bender
Peace, Sussex, Wisconsin
Rev. Eric Brown
Trinity, Herscher, Illinois
Rev. Heath Curtis
Zion, Carpenter, Illinois
Rev. William Cwirla
Holy Trinity, Hacienda Heights, CA
Rev. Dr. Burnell Eckardt
St. Paul, Kewanee, Illinois
Rev. Erich Fickel
St. Paul, Chesterton, Indiana
Rev. William Foy
Prince of Peace, Valparaiso, Indiana
Rev. John A. Frahm III
Trinity, Boulder Junction, Wisconsin
Rev. Robert Franck
Mount Olive, Duluth, Minnesota
Rev. Dr. Gifford Grobien
CTS, Fort Wayne, Indiana
Rev. Dr. Kent Heimbigner
Charity, Burleson, Texas
Rev. Dr. Steven Hein
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Rev. Rich Heinz
St. Johns, Chicago, Illinois
Rev. David Kind
University Lutheran, Minneapolis
Rev. Brent Kuhlman
Trinity, Murdock, Nebraska
Rev. Alan Ludwig, Professor
Lutheran Theological Seminary
Novosibirsk, Russia
Rev. Todd Peperkorn
Holy Cross, Rocklin, California
Rev. J. Richard Sawyer
Good Shepherd, Brandon, Mississippi
Rev. Robert Schaibley, emeritus
Shepherd of the Springs,
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Rev. Dr. Richard Stuckwisch
Emmaus, South Bend, Indiana
Rev. Jacob Sutton
Immanuel, Terre Haute, Indiana
Rev. Ralph Tausz
Apostles, Melrose Park, Illinois
Rev. David Jay Webber
Redeemer, Scottsdale, Arizona
Rev. William Weedon
Lutheran Public Radio, Collinsville, IL
Rev. Dr. Georg Williams
Zion, Ainsworth, Nebraska
Rev. Kyle Wright II
St. Matthew, Hamlet, Indiana
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Rubrics and Blogistics for the Blackbirds
Unlike the Ten Commandments, these are not written in stone (though some of them are pretty solid). Those who may be reading over our shoulders might also find these interesting.
1. Be reverent and courteous. Piepkorn's fundamental pair of rubrics for the conduct of the Service are likewise pertinent here. It's simply faith toward God and love toward others. All the other rules and rubrics are an application of those principles to specific questions.
2. Our blog is a public forum, and we are all public servants of the Word. Therefore, what we write and the manner in which we write ought to reflect an appropriate decorum. Though you may sometimes wonder, there are people reading what you have to say. The majority of them will mostly be quiet about it, and many will probably never respond with any comments, but they will benefit, and they will appreciate it.
3. Although this is a public forum, don't be self-conscious about your writing, and don't attempt to play to the crowd. Simply address yourself pastorally to the topics you take up for consideration, as you would respond to members of your own parish who are asking about or need to be told such things as pertain to their Christian faith and life.
4. Don't be intentionally provocative or controversial, but don't shy away from engaging topics in a way that challenges the status quo (from and within the parameters of the Word of God and our common confession of the same). By the same token, let us hold each other accountable to the apostolic doctrine. Do not fear correction, nor fear to question; that is the way in which we learn from one other and sharpen one another for the common good.
5. A helpful rule of thumb is akin to Luther's advice on confession: Don't make blogging into a torture, nor seek to invent things worth saying, as though to impress anyone. Instead, if there are matters weighing on your heart or mind, address them with the Word of God from within your office and station in life, and thereby allow your fathers and brothers in Christ to respond with the Word of the Lord from within their own vocations. (Blogging should not be a kind of virtual confessional; this rubric speaks only to the way in which one ought to approach this sort of writing and discussion.)
6. Our blog lands somewhere between an e-mail discussion list and a published theological journal. Less from-the-hip than e-mail groups, but less formal than a publication. Bear in mind that your posts can be edited (or removed) after the fact; so don't agonize over every jot and tittle up front, as though your posts had to be perfect from the outset. That's not to advocate recklessness, but do not be so scrupulous that you hesitate to say anything.
7. Our blog is something like an online Logia, and your posts may be compared to the "Theological Observer" in the CTQ, or the "Public Square" in First Things. Only this forum is much faster and allows for considerably more give and take, not only amongst ourselves but with others, too.
8. Make an effort to post at least once every other month. The more, the better, but don't try to force it. When things come up in the course of your pastoral vocation, consider the possibility of reflecting upon those matters on the blog (with appropriate discretion).
9. When you post something, "label" it with one or more of the twenty-four topics, whichever of those you are addressing. The blog will tally and catologue those things for us, which will be helpful. The precise list of topics may develop over time, but let's follow those parameters along the way; that will help to keep things on track.
10. Once someone has posted on a particular topic, there would be potentially two ways for the rest of us to respond (and we should be inclined to respond, as we are so minded and able): Either by way of comments under the post, which should be the normal approach; or, if you intend to offer a significant critique or a substantial addition, then you could write a follow-up post of your own. The goal, obviously, is not to compete with one another, but to dialogue with each other, to discuss and even to debate, as the case may be.
11. Don't blog in a spirit of melancholy, despair or bitterness. You don't serve yourself or your neighbor when you succumb to such things. At such times, seek out a father in Christ to lift you up and sustain you with the Gospel. Once you have been brought from trial and tribulation into renewed faith, then you might consider sharing aspects of that burden on the blog, retrospectively, in a way that helps to lead your readers into repentant faith along with you. It is one of the ways in which the cross bears fruit, not only in you and for your benefit, but also for the benefit of your neighbor. The hymns of Paul Gerhardt are such an example. Consider how comforting and helpful they are, because they always confess such faith in the Gospel: precisely in, with and under the Cross. By contrast, imagine the difference if Gerhardt had wallowed in self-pity and despair, instead of confessing the Gospel.
12. Our cooperative blog is not the place for posting sermons or extended quotations or lists of things or personal family adventures (though in some cases such things may provide the context for theological commentary). If you want to quote something, fine, but do so for the sake of providing your own assessment and constructive critique (whether pro or con).
1. Be reverent and courteous. Piepkorn's fundamental pair of rubrics for the conduct of the Service are likewise pertinent here. It's simply faith toward God and love toward others. All the other rules and rubrics are an application of those principles to specific questions.
2. Our blog is a public forum, and we are all public servants of the Word. Therefore, what we write and the manner in which we write ought to reflect an appropriate decorum. Though you may sometimes wonder, there are people reading what you have to say. The majority of them will mostly be quiet about it, and many will probably never respond with any comments, but they will benefit, and they will appreciate it.
3. Although this is a public forum, don't be self-conscious about your writing, and don't attempt to play to the crowd. Simply address yourself pastorally to the topics you take up for consideration, as you would respond to members of your own parish who are asking about or need to be told such things as pertain to their Christian faith and life.
4. Don't be intentionally provocative or controversial, but don't shy away from engaging topics in a way that challenges the status quo (from and within the parameters of the Word of God and our common confession of the same). By the same token, let us hold each other accountable to the apostolic doctrine. Do not fear correction, nor fear to question; that is the way in which we learn from one other and sharpen one another for the common good.
5. A helpful rule of thumb is akin to Luther's advice on confession: Don't make blogging into a torture, nor seek to invent things worth saying, as though to impress anyone. Instead, if there are matters weighing on your heart or mind, address them with the Word of God from within your office and station in life, and thereby allow your fathers and brothers in Christ to respond with the Word of the Lord from within their own vocations. (Blogging should not be a kind of virtual confessional; this rubric speaks only to the way in which one ought to approach this sort of writing and discussion.)
6. Our blog lands somewhere between an e-mail discussion list and a published theological journal. Less from-the-hip than e-mail groups, but less formal than a publication. Bear in mind that your posts can be edited (or removed) after the fact; so don't agonize over every jot and tittle up front, as though your posts had to be perfect from the outset. That's not to advocate recklessness, but do not be so scrupulous that you hesitate to say anything.
7. Our blog is something like an online Logia, and your posts may be compared to the "Theological Observer" in the CTQ, or the "Public Square" in First Things. Only this forum is much faster and allows for considerably more give and take, not only amongst ourselves but with others, too.
8. Make an effort to post at least once every other month. The more, the better, but don't try to force it. When things come up in the course of your pastoral vocation, consider the possibility of reflecting upon those matters on the blog (with appropriate discretion).
9. When you post something, "label" it with one or more of the twenty-four topics, whichever of those you are addressing. The blog will tally and catologue those things for us, which will be helpful. The precise list of topics may develop over time, but let's follow those parameters along the way; that will help to keep things on track.
10. Once someone has posted on a particular topic, there would be potentially two ways for the rest of us to respond (and we should be inclined to respond, as we are so minded and able): Either by way of comments under the post, which should be the normal approach; or, if you intend to offer a significant critique or a substantial addition, then you could write a follow-up post of your own. The goal, obviously, is not to compete with one another, but to dialogue with each other, to discuss and even to debate, as the case may be.
11. Don't blog in a spirit of melancholy, despair or bitterness. You don't serve yourself or your neighbor when you succumb to such things. At such times, seek out a father in Christ to lift you up and sustain you with the Gospel. Once you have been brought from trial and tribulation into renewed faith, then you might consider sharing aspects of that burden on the blog, retrospectively, in a way that helps to lead your readers into repentant faith along with you. It is one of the ways in which the cross bears fruit, not only in you and for your benefit, but also for the benefit of your neighbor. The hymns of Paul Gerhardt are such an example. Consider how comforting and helpful they are, because they always confess such faith in the Gospel: precisely in, with and under the Cross. By contrast, imagine the difference if Gerhardt had wallowed in self-pity and despair, instead of confessing the Gospel.
12. Our cooperative blog is not the place for posting sermons or extended quotations or lists of things or personal family adventures (though in some cases such things may provide the context for theological commentary). If you want to quote something, fine, but do so for the sake of providing your own assessment and constructive critique (whether pro or con).
Posts
12 comments:
Here an Elder assists in Communion (I distribute our Lord's Body, he offers the individual cup, then I the common) while robed in an alb. The Elders also oversee the ushers, identify visitors (in particularly those who may not be of our confession). Also, our congregation is divided amongst the Elders, and they have the duty to pray for those on their list and also to visit them when sick. They also have the same tasks which you listed above.
As far as communion goes, we have elders help with the distribution, usually of the individual cups. Most of the elders don't even want to handle the common cup. Unfortunately, so few people use the common cup that it takes no time for me to follow with it. Anyhow, I distribute the host and the common cup. An elder distributes the individual cups.
I don't know that aptitude for pastoral ministry is the issue in distributing the body and blood of Christ, so much as the call to do so. Not that I think the elders have a "divine call" but at least there's a well-defined office that they're in -- and they don't do it themselves, ever. Properly speaking they assist.
I distribute the body, the assisting elder follows with the individual cups, then I follow with the common cup.
In spite of all the facts, there are a significant number of members who believe that the common cup can pass diseases from one communicant to the other. It will be a long time before these people will allow me to stop offering the individual cups.
As to attire and even dress code, almost anything goes. I am not sure that all of my elders even own a suit and tie. Albs for the elders cost money.
Given the state of catechesis in the past few decades, rejoice that these are your biggest problems.
We added a mid-week communion service. I thought I would spare the Altar Guild a great deal of trouble by using only the chalice. Eventually they insisted on including the individual cups, and I realized that I had been inadvertently keeping some members away from communing mid-week by this practice. Indiv. cups will be with us for at least another 100 years, if the Lord should tarry. I myself have put eliminating them on my list of things to do within the next 150 years.
RE: "in spite of all the facts" (about the communion cup spreading communicable diseases)
Which facts are those? I ask honestly not sarcastically.
While it's an alcohol environment and thus hostile to germs, it's still possible to pass disease. Lutherans believe that there is at least some wine still present and Catholics believe that the properties of wine remains. In any case, the cup will contain the Blood and wine and any other foreign material that was present in the wine or the cup before consecration.
Does anyone believe that consecration removes all foreign objects and sterilizes the cup environment? I have not heard of this before.
I'm no fan of individual cups, but in the case of a possible pandemic or serious contagious infectious disease spreading rapidly, prudence seems to dictate that the cup be withheld. I'm not sure which is worse: Withholding the cup altogether or fostering individual "communion" by using the individual cups. I'm inclined to believe that withholding the cup is the less problematic solution.
Quick question: We Catholics believe that Christ is Really Present, fully (Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) in every crumb of Host and every drop of Blood so it is OK to receive just the Host in these circumstances. What do Lutherans preach/teach on this subject?
well, Chad, there have been scientific studies which demonstrate that congregations using the common cup have no higher incidence of disease than the surrounding population (I think I have the correct statement of the studies' results).
Other considerations beside the alcoholic environment are that metal, especially inert metals like gold or silver do not harbor bacteria or viruses very much (compared to wood, for example).
Studies do show that there _are_ bacteria/viruses on the cup which can be transmitted. However, there are also bacteria/viruses in the air, on doorknobs, on people's hands when you "pass the peace" (which I know all y'all Vatican 2-ers like).
Anyhow, it's basically germophobia which gives people qualms about the common cup. But that's what our society teaches us, so what can you do?
As a side note, I would like to see a comparison of how much bacteria/viruses are on an individual cup which has been handled by the altar guild and the pastor, not to mention the person's own hands as they often handle them by the rim, in comparison to a properly "purificated" common cup.
Anyhow, I don't know why there isn't more discussion about the role of lay elders in distributing the body and blood of our Lord.
I distribute the host and the assisting minister (1/3 ordained when available and 2/3 time lay) distributes the individual cups and an elder (or 1/3 time ordained) follows with the chalice... since we have 45% chalice and 55% indi cups, it is a great help and I trained them and the people were patient... it is not perfect but it works when you have two masses each Sunday and 225 communicants...
@George and Colleen:
Ah, thank you. I agree with your germaphobia charge. I thought someone might be making an argument that there is some supernatural protection because it is the Blood of Christ and has special miraculous powers at all times. This may be the case sometimes, but I do not think it is always so.
Interesting comments. Is it possible that at the moment that God is giving us Life Himself that He will also give us some disease or even death?
Common cups came in from the protestants after Mr. Welch pasturized grape juice. It was their concern for the spreading of disease in their memorial meal as they did not and do not have the Holy Supper of our Lord for they do not believe in the real presence nor do they presume to receive Christ bodily. The Lutherans and the Catholics allowed this to come into their churches.
There have been plagues and disease throughout the time of the Church and Holy Communion. Yet, the Chalice was always given at least between the priests who also suffered and died otherwise from these diseases. Is there any case that shows that such diseases were spread by the use of the Chalice?
Also, as to reducing and working towards the elimination of the common cups, several years ago I changed the order of distribution to Chalice before Individual cups. Many more now take from the chalice. Before we would use nearly two trays of individual cups, and in the past 5 years we have only used on full tray one time and the norm is now less than 30 cups. Besides, the chalice is how it was instituted and it deserves precedence.
I learned that many hated to wave off the individual cups for they thought it rude and thus that is why they took it for it came first. The change bothered the hardcore individual cup users and their comment was "I feel guilty saying no to the chalice" to which I responded "then take it" and "that is how those who wanted it felt for years, I am sorry but this is the proper order of things."
The last question or point is that the laity is just that "the laity" and the Lord draws them by His Spirit into His Church to serve them, to feed them, to bath them in His grace and mercy. At the crescendo of the Divine Service, the Holy Supper, we take a few from being served, filled, and fed and call upon them to serve in a role into which they have not been called by God. I believe we put an undue burden upon them even if they do not recognize this to be the case and most of my elders do recognize this.
What say you to all of this?
For what it's worth, I've been told individual cups came into vogue in the 1800s from people who did not want there lips touching the common cup used by those of other races. God help us.
If time is an issue, why not drop the silly blessings-of-the-children at the altar thing? That way you can distribute both the Body and the Blood of our Lord.
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